Curse

Shayne Hawke · Feb 06, 2009, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Two teams found a flaw in your system. You're going to punish them for making it well known? I hope you'll at least fix it. You're going to punish them for not wanting to play your game? I hope you'll do some skill balancing.

All I can hear from people here is QQQQQQQQQQQQQ and headbutting opinions. The reason this happened was because ANet allowed it to happen, and now that it's over, they're saying, "We effed up, so you're going to take the fall."

Ohhhhhhhhh, dear.

Master Fuhon · Feb 06, 2009, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Judgements of right and wrong, legal or illegal, have nothing to do with the capabilities of an enforcing body to smite you down on the spot. The police are not given the capacity to prevent crimes; you are given an honor system of rules to follow, with the complete freedom to break those rules should you choose. Under this system of law, you have the right to relinquish your ability to choose (have someone else make the decision) and be held responsible for doing what that person told you to do (in a military state they do not have such rights). When you violate an honor system, you play a role in violating the rights of everyone.

It is also completely unreasonable to expect that you be prevented from doing anything that you would later be punished for, because it would involve 24 hour supervision and being placed in a cage.

The bigger problem I see with the situation, is that it was done, and now there are people out there who feel absolutely no remorse about doing it in the future. People thought it was funny, or they liked the guilds involved, and they decided that was a good enough justification for letting anyone get away with it. So now, we have a bunch of excuses for why this is supposed to be logically justifiable, all of them coming after the concept of punishment was introduced. You tell them to look at what they've done, and they feel that absolutely nothing wrong has been done and they are self-righteous about what they did.

Not that we have a truly dire case on hand yet, but some of the comments I'm seeing indicate there has been a complete lack of insight oriented towards engaging in good sportsmanship. There are people who are actually indignant about making the police force prevent all crime by stripping away freedoms, instead of trying to make the realization that a rule system is there for a reason. Whatever original intent their actions were supposed to serve, people are certainly using it to justify other behavior.

Jenn · Feb 06, 2009, 12:44 AM // 00:44

After re-reading the User Agreement and Rules of Conduct, I think this situation does fall under violations of at least two parts, at which point aNet can very rightfully terminate the guilds or do whatever the hell else they want.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

Two teams found a flaw in your system. You're going to punish them for making it well known?

While I agree that anet does hold responsibility for this and all other bugs, I think it prudent that they establish a more uniform way of dealing with "exploitations." Personally I'm not a fan of harsh punishments because of anet's role, but I'd like to see fairness from here on in.

For example, there was little doubt amongst players that dupers should be banned, or that HFFF bot users should remain banned despite the controversy over a statement Gaile Gray had made. It could be equally argued that aNet should have forseen the duping scandal from situations in other games, or not underestimate the player base in tapping out the full potential of heroes and such. At what point does responsibility come off ANet's shoulders and go onto the players? Why is there such discord when it comes to banning people we know via PvP fame vs. nameless botters or dupers?

By the way, two sections of the RoC I could identify that were possibly violated...

Quote:

1. While playing Guild Wars, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the game. To this end, you may not defraud....

Quote:

19. You will not exploit any bug in Guild Wars and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug (bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits).....

I guess this would depend on what a "exploit" is considered...

-----
Apologies if this post is seen as a derailment. The comparisons exist solely to provide perspective on what constitutes fair punishment given the past, as well as shed light on aNet's role in said "exploitations."

Rhamia Darigaz · Feb 06, 2009, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Fuhon

Judgements of right and wrong, legal or illegal, have nothing to do with the capabilities of an enforcing body to smite you down on the spot. The police are not given the capacity to prevent crimes; you are given an honor system of rules to follow, with the complete freedom to break those rules should you choose. Under this system of law, you have the right to relinquish your ability to choose (have someone else make the decision) and be held responsible for doing what that person told you to do (in a military state they do not have such rights). When you violate an honor system, you play a role in violating the rights of everyone.

It is also completely unreasonable to expect that you be prevented from doing anything that you would later be punished for, because it would involve 24 hour supervision and being placed in a cage.

The bigger problem I see with the situation, is that it was done, and now there are people out there who feel absolutely no remorse about doing it in the future. People thought it was funny, or they liked the guilds involved, and they decided that was a good enough justification for letting anyone get away with it. So now, we have a bunch of excuses for why this is supposed to be logically justifiable, all of them coming after the concept of punishment was introduced. You tell them to look at what they've done, and they feel that absolutely nothing wrong has been done and they are self-righteous about what they did.

Not that we have a truly dire case on hand yet, but some of the comments I'm seeing indicate there has been a complete lack of insight oriented towards engaging in good sportsmanship. There are people who are actually indignant about making the police force prevent all crime by stripping away freedoms, instead of trying to make the realization that a rule system is there for a reason. Whatever original intent their actions were supposed to serve, people are certainly using it to justify other behavior.

nobody's saying (or i'm not, at least) that intentional draws are legal because there is nothing physically stopping people from doing them. they're legal because draws are programmed into the game and there is no rule that makes intentionally drawing illegal.

to your second point, of course people are just arguing over whether intentional draws are legal or not now; it's relevant now. just because nobody voiced their opinions on the legality of intentional draws until now doesn't mean they only think it's ok because their favorite guild did it or because it was funny. why would i have made a post before now clarifying my views on intentional drawing? there was no reason to do so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfated Fat

Quote:
1. While playing Guild Wars, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the game. To this end, you may not defraud....
Quote:
19. You will not exploit any bug in Guild Wars and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug (bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits).....

i fail to see how rawr and zero should have know that intentional drawing would be considered (very wrongfully, in my opinion) disrespecting the rights of others or an exploitation of a bug. i seriously doubt the ability to draw in a tournament is a bug, and there's certainly no way for anybody to have foreseen such a ruling as many other games incorporate draws in the same way guild wars does.
intentionally drawing is no more disrespectful to another player's right to play than beating them in a game and disqualifying them from advancing them in a tournament is. in a competitive game it's the goal of every team to advance in the rankings or tournament, and this almost always inhibits another team's ability to advance. that's the nature of competitive play. if enough people get especially pissy about losing to guilds who decide to intentionally draw anet can remove the ability to draw in future tournaments, but retroactively punishing rawr and zero because they played a tournament the way tournaments with draw mechanics can be played is ridiculous.

lutz · Feb 06, 2009, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Hm wait let me get this straight...

People are mad that 2 guilds tied when:

A. It wasn't against a rule
B. They both would have advanced anyways
C. This happens with regularity, yet this is the first time people outrage

Sounds fair to me.

This sounds pretty misinformed to me.

A. It is against the sportsmanship rule, and is manipulating the ranking of the tournament.
B. Who cares? If you cheat on a test even though you would have gotten a high grade in the class anyway, does that mean that the "cheating" is fine? No.
C. Uh... what?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhamia Darigaz

nobody's saying (or i'm not, at least) that intentional draws are legal because there is nothing physically stopping people from doing them. they're legal because draws are programmed into the game and there is no rule that makes intentionally drawing illegal.

to your second point, of course people are just arguing over whether intentional draws are legal or not now; it's relevant now. just because nobody voiced their opinions on the legality of intentional draws until now doesn't mean they only think it's ok because their favorite guild did it or because it was funny. why would i have made a post before now clarifying my views on intentional drawing? there was no reason to do so.

Do you really have Down's or are you just trying to troll?
Intentional draws are illegal. Trying to FORCE A DRAW is not illegal.

One team making a stall build until 28 with 8 monks and somehow preventing all damage on their lord for 28 minutes is NOT illegal. Two teams conspiring to not play the game at all and conga line for 28 minutes (or 2 seconds - it doesn't matter; you need to play all 28 minutes of the game) IS ILLEGAL.

DreamWind · Feb 06, 2009, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

A. It is against the sportsmanship rule, and is manipulating the ranking of the tournament.

May I see the sportsmanship rule in the official rules? Also as far as I know it didn't manipulate any ranking because they both would have advanced regardless...although I'm just going by what other people have said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

B. Who cares? If you cheat on a test even though you would have gotten a high grade in the class anyway, does that mean that the "cheating" is fine? No.

Different circumstances. In this situation who says it is even cheating besides Anet after the fact? To me it looks like two guilds who are messing around with no benefit to either one of them. I'm doubting either one of them considered it cheating...why blatantly cheat when the game is going to be on observer?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

C. Uh... what?

This sort of thing happens regularly in HB (as others have stated). It has even happened in PREVIOUS MONTHLYS! The only reason for the outrage in this game is because of the guilds involved, not because it happened.

Rhamia Darigaz · Feb 06, 2009, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Do you really have Down's or are you just trying to troll?
Intentional draws are illegal. Trying to FORCE A DRAW is not illegal.

One team making a stall build until 28 with 8 monks and somehow preventing all damage on their lord for 28 minutes is NOT illegal. Two teams conspiring to not play the game at all and conga line for 28 minutes (or 2 seconds - it doesn't matter; you need to play all 28 minutes of the game) IS ILLEGAL.

how are intentional draws illegal? i've yet to hear a reason that i agree with. implying that i have down's syndrome for disagreeing with you isn't very persuasive

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

May I see the sportsmanship rule in the official rules? Also as far as I know it didn't manipulate any ranking because they both would have advanced regardless...although I'm just going by what other people have said.

unsportsmanlike conduct is in fact against the rules of guild wars. a better question though is what makes intentionally drawing unsportsmanlike? i don't believe it is.

lutz · Feb 06, 2009, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

May I see the sportsmanship rule in the official rules? Also as far as I know it didn't manipulate any ranking because they both would have advanced regardless...although I'm just going by what other people have said.

Different circumstances. In this situation who says it is even cheating besides Anet after the fact? To me it looks like two guilds who are messing around with no benefit to either one of them. I'm doubting either one of them considered it cheating...why blatantly cheat when the game is going to be on observer?

This sort of thing happens regularly in HB (as others have stated). It has even happened in PREVIOUS MONTHLYS! The only reason for the outrage in this game is because of the guilds involved, not because it happened.

Quote:

Players/guilds are expected to behave in a respectful and sporting manner at all times.

It's pretty black and white that they broke the rules.

Rhamia Darigaz · Feb 06, 2009, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

It's pretty black and white that they broke the rules.

what constitutes sportsmanlike behavior is hardly black and white. where's the rule or objective process by which i can come to know that intentionally drawing is unsportsmanlike?

josh axiom · Feb 06, 2009, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

B. Who cares? If you cheat on a test even though you would have gotten a high grade in the class anyway, does that mean that the "cheating" is fine? No.

We didn't cheat on the test, we ditched class entirely.

lutz · Feb 06, 2009, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhamia Darigaz

how are intentional draws illegal? i've yet to hear a reason that i agree with. implying that i have down's syndrome for disagreeing with you isn't very persuasive

unsportsmanlike conduct is in fact against the rules of guild wars. a better question though is what makes intentionally drawing unsportsmanlike? i don't believe it is.

Intentionally drawing is unsportsmanlike according to ArenaNet.

Rhamia Darigaz · Feb 06, 2009, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Intentionally drawing is unsportsmanlike according to ArenaNet.

i doubt there was a rule or even a statement about intentional draws before the rawr vs zero game, feel free to provide a quote and humiliate me in public though.

Martin Alvito · Feb 06, 2009, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Original Tournament Rules

Players/guilds are expected to not participate in any form of ladder manipulation. Ladder Manipulation is defined as any actions taken to alter the rankings or ratings of the tournament ladder that deviate from guilds actually playing and completing battles. Throwing matches or getting your opponent’s to throw them to you are examples of ladder manipulation because ratings and rankings are changed without actual game play taking place.

This is pretty black and white, people.

Also, do the math. [rawr] was in danger of missing the top 16. If a couple other guilds with good tiebreaks had won and [rawr] had lost, they were done. The numbers are available in-game. [rawr] would have had the worst tiebreaks of a 4-2 team; those tiebreaks probably would have improved to #15 by losing to [zero].

This fact suggests to me that [zero] fails at strategy. They should have accepted the lottery outcome described by Awowa and tried to screw [rawr] out of a top 16 berth (at no cost or risk - they had excellent tiebreaks), thus improving the odds of winning gold capes markedly.

Penalize [zero] if you wish, but [rawr] was the advantaged team here. They can try and put a nice face on it, but the simple fact of the matter is that they rooked [zero] and are attempting to weasel out of it.

Billiard · Feb 06, 2009, 01:50 AM // 01:50

ArenaNet has a lot of issues to balance here, but I think they have been pretty thoughtful about this and I trust that they will do what is best for the game and community in the long run.

Please don't get all up in arms trying to prove how your points are clearly more valid than that of others. ArenaNet makes the game and players are obligated to follow the rules as ArenaNet sets forth and interprets them - not what everyone else thinks.

Regina Buenaobra · Feb 06, 2009, 01:54 AM // 01:54

There have been several good points raised here, and these were raised in our discussions, too.

lutz raised a good point regarding rule-breaking and getting caught. Whether you break the rules and get caught or break the rules and get away with it, you still broke the rules.

Ties are allowed, but what took place was not simply two guilds competing to a draw.

And beyond what actually took place at the match, we also have to weigh other wider factors as well. We haven't been discussing this issue in a vacuum. Players are calling for range of different consequences, from taking no action to the most severe action we could possibly take. We have all been consulting with our coworkers and players to get as many perspectives as possible to come to a fair decision.

It was correctly pointed out that the 2008 Tournament Series Rules expired in December 2008. The rules will be updated accordingly, however the Universal Tournament Rules, which do not have an expiration date, do apply in this case.

And also, relevant points about the technical aspects and tie-breaking mechanics were raised. We're aware that not everyone is satisfied with it. It's diverging from this thread's topic, so if you have some detailed, concrete, and constructive suggestions, please feel free to send them my way. I collect a lot of suggestions, but many of them are unworkable or changes that the team doesn't want to necessarily make.

Master Fuhon · Feb 06, 2009, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Competitive rules on sportsmanship and conduct have always been black or white. Maybe there are people who feel that anonymity over the internet would change things, but they would be mostly wrong. In real competition you get punished for an act 'perceivable' as taunting because it serves as a violation of sportsmanship rules. Based on common standards of how rules are defined, you have no grounds to claim that you were not aware of how an action would be interpreted. How it is interpreted is how you are judged.

No matter whatever competitive world you associate with, match fixing is one of the worst things you can do, along with cheating. If it's flagrant and obvious match fixing, I guess it should also be interpreted as an insult to everyone who plays competitively and a lack of respect towards those who organize the league.

I don't see how any leeway received on these issues will come from being logical about things. You might try to bargain for leniency, instead of thinking there's some logical ground to stand on. The company is still free to misinterpret it's own rules on the matter.

Vel · Feb 06, 2009, 02:10 AM // 02:10

rawr should not be perma banned. I always put them on #1 in XTH. Unlike DF or dR they rarely disappointed me.

Jokes aside, rules infraction is bad. But, banning two teams is not really a good idea. Maybe take their gold trim away.

Silverhand · Feb 06, 2009, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Fuhon

Competitive rules on sportsmanship and conduct have always been black or white. Maybe there are people who feel that anonymity over the internet would change things, but they would be mostly wrong. In real competition you get punished for an act 'perceivable' as taunting because it serves as a violation of sportsmanship rules. Based on common standards of how rules are defined, you have no grounds to claim that you were not aware of how an action would be interpreted. How it is interpreted is how you are

LOL using taunting as a black and white example of bad sportsmanship is ridiculous considering we have a taunt emote and have rank emote that can be done over enemies that are dead

psykoikonov · Feb 06, 2009, 02:38 AM // 02:38

imo nothing should be done to either guild except fix what Anet doesn't want to happen.

Simple reason is HB and RA, HB has shown that win/loss/tie can be manipulated and RA has allowed palyers to sync since the begining. Now all of the sudden there is punishment for unsportman like conduct. So unsportsman like conduct can get you in trouble IF people actually care about it. So as long as the observed parties know which rules don't need to be followed it's ok..../double standard. The ladder in HB is manipulated constantly and rewards are given for this...not to the same extent as GVG but none the less.

Master Fuhon · Feb 06, 2009, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silverhand

LOL using taunting as a black and white example of bad sportsmanship is ridiculous considering we have a taunt emote and have rank emote that can be done over enemies that are dead

I didn't mean that example in relation to this game, but in relation to games that have the no taunting rules. You do not get to determine how your behavior should be interpreted in a rule system, someone else does. I remember general things like "no swearing in the presence of anyone" because those swears could be interpreted as being meant for them. Like how making a snow angel draws a fine in football for taunting. A black or white rule indicates infraction or non-infraction, not degrees of rule breaking.

But according to your logic, I have some curse words in my vocabulary that came from being printed in a dictionary... sounds like you think that's reason enough to use them. Just because the emotes can be used in a way, does not imply the game designers encourage you to do so.

I've seen it referenced as 'sandbox' play, you have some freedoms to do what you will. At least notice you cannot specifically target your taunts towards an individual, which is something you can do in other games. That is at least one restriction game designers have put in place to demonstrate they do not condone taunting. Rank showing was entirely your own interpretation; it can be used to qualify oneself for a group.

I had a previous post on this type of discussion; I usually don't bother to reason with anyone who expects to be prevented from doing things that are wrong. There are flaws in my logic, but not quite as glaring as the logic of someone who thinks right = doable, wrong = not doable.

In specifics to the guilds involved, I'd like to add that I have no problems when people do something wrong and accept blame. I'd even advocate going easy on them.